new UL Canister Burner project

Post your new stove ideas here! All stoves welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
DarenN
Posts: 2816
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:46 am
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by DarenN » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:40 pm

zelph wrote:Facial hair removed via the wax process OUCH!!!!! :lol:
on his toes? i'd don't think it would bother him much. seems like a tough enough duck. :lol:
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

oops56
Posts: 1920
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:31 am

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by oops56 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:02 pm

I had my eyebrows burnt off once did not know it tell some one told me. It was at work this hot machine was to be shut down early so we could work on it first thing do a lock out then work on it open door hot air got me no face burn nor did it burn my beard just eye brows and eye lids hair.P. S. i got dish pan hands my this not right i can see my finger prints and all the lines on my hand the finger nails to clean
Man play with fire man get burnt

Tony
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:46 pm
Location: Canberra Australia
Contact:

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by Tony » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:25 am

Hi Zelph,
You guys got my attention when you said slow is efficient. :D

The all famous Supercat boiled 2 cups of water in my aluminum 2.5 cup pot. Fuel used was 1/2 ounce of denatured. Time was 4.25 min.

Bench tested several times under optimum conditions.

The pot can absorb the heat quickly.

The longer it takes to boil under optimum conditions, tthe longer it's going to take under field conditions and in some cases won't acheive a boil because of loss of heat while waiting for the stove to slowly provide more. Something like that ;) :D
You are right to a point that if you heat really slowly the heat going in if less than the heat going out, but in all of the slow test that I have done using a Pocket Rocket (yellow line)taking over 35 minutes to boil a liter of water I have seen very little drop off in efficiency if any at all. I have had the same results with a Trangia (red line)see graph below. I will state that theses tests where done at around 20ºC, if it was -20ºC thing might be different.

Note that with the Pocket Rocket if the boiling is too quick (faster than 12 minutes) the fuel usage goes up dramatically.

The third blue line was a white gas stove MSR whisperlite, its efficiency improved a lot as I slowed it down.

Tony

Image

Tony
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:46 pm
Location: Canberra Australia
Contact:

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by Tony » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:02 am

Hi Daren,
i got out a 2 liter pot and gave it a try with 1.5 liters of tap water. for the big 6" diameter pot i bent the potstand arms out to a 4" diameter circle, from the three inch original pattern. the water boiled in jig time with no potstand problems from heat. stability was quite good with the big pot.
i think that having the potstand legs splayed out a bit helps with stability.
I recently tested out my larger stove with a bird wire pot stand that was too small and placed the 1.5l JetBoil pot on top and lit the stove, the pot stand got red hot and buckled under the weight of the pot, I made a slightly bigger diameter stand and no problems. 4" is probably big enough.


Tony;
you can see that i have not incorporated an evaporater tube on this stove. i don't go out when it's cold, so, no need.
once this big pot was boiling i turned the canister over for a liquid fuel burn; just to see if it would do it. it performed just fine. i guess that the aluminum body of the burner makes enough heat to make the evap tube un-nesseccary; un-required; not needed .
If I only went out in warm temperatures then I would not be making liquid feed stoves either. I would probably stick to on top of canister stoves. check this out

http://bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=515

When warm the liquid fuel traveling in the fuel line is normally enough to turn the liquid into gas but in cold conditions this can be a problem. As you mentioned the warm stove body also helps. (Roger Caffin is doing some work in this area with mixed success ) I have had my fuel lines get frosted with ice many times which means that liquid fuel is going through them, I like the thought of one stove for all seasons ( that is where I am going) as where I walk I have experienced heavy frosts in the middle of summer.

As you are probably aware bench testing is different to field testing, It is in the field is where it really matters and where new problems happen.

(is there a trick to remembering how to spell 'nessescary'??)
Yes it is called a spell checker

Tony

User avatar
zelph
Posts: 15834
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by zelph » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:50 pm

You are right to a point that if you heat really slowly the heat going in if less than the heat going out, but in all of the slow test that I have done using a Pocket Rocket (yellow line)taking over 35 minutes to boil a liter of water I have seen very little drop off in efficiency if any at all. I have had the same results with a Trangia (red line)see graph below. I will state that theses tests where done at around 20ºC, if it was -20ºC thing might be different.

Note that with the Pocket Rocket if the boiling is too quick (faster than 12 minutes) the fuel usage goes up dramatically.

The third blue line was a white gas stove MSR whisperlite, its efficiency improved a lot as I slowed it down.

Tony

Canister stoves are new to me :D It sure does look like slow is the way to go with canisters as you have shown.

I have seen feedback on a stove that goes by the name ION made by Sgt. Rock. I have made 3 and bench tested them under controlled conditions. I made them because of the information given that slow is the way to go with alcohol. The feedback that was coming in on the stove was that a boil was not being acheived outdoors under real world conditions. I used a glass globe from a coleman lantern as my windscreen fitted with a perforated aluminum skirt at its base to allow air in. The skirt was open on one side simulating the instructions given on the operation of the ION. I used an electric fan to blow a light breeze onto the globe windscreen. The clear glass allowed me to have a visual on the stoves operation under a slight breeze. It was clearly seen that the open portion of the skirt(about 3 inches wide by 1/4 inch high) alowed a draft of air to come in and cause the flame pattern of the stove to be directed to the back side of the pot. In escence a flue with a hole on one side. All things being relative when it comes to heating water. One of the first remedies for the stoves inability to boil water was suggested that the fuel may be contaminated :D (where have we heard that before?) The stove is a slow burning open top type. My tests showed that the conditions had to be ideal bench conditions to get a boil in a cold garage workshop. Slow alcohol stoves are a challenge, 200 degree water temps are acceptable for me.

For stove designing they have to do 2 cups with 1/2 ounce to make the grade. :mrgreen:
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

oops56
Posts: 1920
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:31 am

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by oops56 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:21 pm

Well since the wife asleep i thought i try my canister stove out

Image
Man play with fire man get burnt

User avatar
DarenN
Posts: 2816
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:46 am
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by DarenN » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:47 pm

DarenN wrote:things i might try are to shorten the burner head (i can turn a new one) and shorten the mixing tube (same). any thoughts on these changes?
Daren.........
i changed three things.
i shortenned the mixing tube by 1/8".
i shortenned the burner head by 1/8". (over-all hieght is now 2", RR. ;) )
i re-fit the screen in the burner head so that it is flat, instead of domed.

the burner now functions better than it did before the changes. :ugeek:

Daren.........
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

User avatar
zelph
Posts: 15834
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by zelph » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:38 pm

DarenN wrote:
DarenN wrote:things i might try are to shorten the burner head (i can turn a new one) and shorten the mixing tube (same). any thoughts on these changes?
Daren.........
i changed three things.
i shortenned the mixing tube by 1/8".
i shortenned the burner head by 1/8". (over-all hieght is now 2", RR. ;) )
i re-fit the screen in the burner head so that it is flat, instead of domed.

the burner now functions better than it did before the changes. :ugeek:

Daren.........
See!!!! there is reason why they call you Deacon Daren :D

The shorter it gets, the better. Go one more time with the 1/8 reduction :geek:

Now we know why oops is called oops. That's what he said when he burned the hole in his background. I don't think he said anything else :mrgreen:
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

User avatar
DarenN
Posts: 2816
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:46 am
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by DarenN » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:06 pm

zelph wrote:Go one more time with the 1/8 reduction
i think i'm very close to the limit as it is.
the flame pattern is showing a thought of starting to lift off (at full output, with a new canister). i might go another 1/16" off the mixing tube, just for the HOI. i can make a new mixing tube easier than any of the other parts. i've got something else on the alledged mind right now. Tony's horizontal burner, modified to suit me of course. :ugeek: i need to get some time on the milling machine at work to get through the next step in the proccess.

Daren........
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

User avatar
DarenN
Posts: 2816
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:46 am
Location: Surrey, B.C. Canada

Re: new UL Canister Burner project

Post by DarenN » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:45 pm

i've gotten a good start on the horizontal burner.
yesterday, i brought home with me a rotary table and set up the burner head on it so that i could turn off the outside. i spent a couple hours on the setup process. this morning, the actual milling took a matter of minutes.
when i got home today i faced off the bottom and top, and bored out the cup.
i also cut the relief that will accept the screen top.
previous to the rotary table milling work, i had machined the stub and threads to accept the mixing tube, as well as machining the burner head end of the mixing tube. with the mixing tube in place on the burner head i could effectively protect the threads on the burner head, as well as give me a visual cue for doing the rotary milling.
the next step is to figure out how i'm going to (simply) machine the jet/fuel intake end of the mixing tube. i have an idea that i may be able to incorporate the jet and hose barb into one piece.

Image

Image

Daren........
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

Post Reply