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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:03 pm
by ridebks
The original question should have been presented to Zelph in private as stevebo did! We all have built stuff that we have seen on the internet. Using it for your own purposes is one thing, using it to make money is another. It seems like situations like this would cause stovies to be more protective of their stuff and not share as much. Bad idea! If JR was going to send Zelph one of his kits, then what was he going to send WBS? Imitation is a form of flattery, when done the right way! I agree with realityguy, using others ideas for profit is not the correct way!

JMO Also!!!

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:23 pm
by ConnieD
I don't know what JollyRogers had in mind, but I am grateful there is discussion of this particular topic.

I put up my website as "ultralightbackpacking" purchasing .com .net and .info

I promoted my website with Google AdWords everywhere English is used, and in forums. I advertised on search terms that were the most direct. I participated in the best forums I could find.

I promoted lightweight and ultralightweight backpacking to the mainstream.

I was in a 5-year college program to know how.

I put the copyright and all rights reserved notice, when REI "ripped off" my 10 essentials concept. I "clarified" my points of clarity, at the White Blaze Forum. Now, of course, the Seattle Mountaineers have clarified it was always 10 systems. It was.

I also "clarified" crevasse rescue, building a snow cave, the oft misunderstood "calorie dense foods" and over 100 pages of other items of consideration and concern.

I am grateful my website is imitated.

I don't feel flattered: ego doesn't enter into it.

I am grateful my website is effective.

However, I chaff at the uncaring and immediate "rip off" of my domain by a nasty commercial website predator, who insisted he would "only" sell my domain back to me for $30,600.

I couldn't even pay to renew my domain.

I was paying big buck$ just to get internet into my remote location: first Connexstar satellite internet, paying for the satellite equipment up front, and next Starband, paying for the satellite internet equipment up front. I don't mean just a dish. Everything: the dish, the LNB, the "satellite" modem, the software, the special cable and fittings, the mounting bracket and stand, the cinder block foundation, and even Birddog.

No one "donated" anything, but one guy has put my stuff on his website and he put a copyright and all rights reserved notice, plus threats in his "page source" which I looked at to see if he ripped off my code, as well.

I helped develop HTML 4.0 transitional, so older computers and older software would not be left behind, especially because many handicapped rely on DOS software, when "everyone" Microsoft was trying to kill off HTML with newer protocols.

That is an aside.

The fact is, I worked hard hoping to have a nice Blog and a nice .net

I wanted my .com to have paid click-thrus, but only click-thrus on the links I provide.

I have a lot of links, and, they are quality links.

That hasn't happened.

I don't want irrelevant ads on my website.

I get very discouraged, when I am hoping to have some income to supplement my disability check for handicap, and instead, I have total jerks rip me off!

(Present company excepted.)

The official disability is neurological impairments for reading and writing, and simple arithmetic, and speech, from a head injury in car wreck, and so, I have to use an assisted technology computer. Even so, it is laborious to post to my website or post to a forum. It is hard work.

It is hard work to do the research to find great links for people to use.

In addition, at times of re-injury to my spine, I am in a tilt-back electric wheelchair to the extent of needing "hand therapy" so I can operate the wheelchair controls.

Every chance I get, I get outside. Every chance I get, I work on my website.

Meanwhile, I am "out in the cold".

Meanwhile, in Oregon "a total jerk" is having paid clinics.

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:33 pm
by ConnieD
I also discussed LED lights for backpacking purposes, in the professional forums.

Then, I took up the discussion at White Blaze forum, which is supposed to have a copyright. The forum owner has explained, on other occasions, what is discussed there is the property of the person making the post.

I put up detailed photos.

I explained what I wanted, and why. I specified the product.

I did have patent training, in college, in my Industrial Technology degree program.

Now, "a jerk" has patented it.

He is selling, on a website I promoted first. In the beginning, that website had no products. But I listed the website, with notices "coming soon" etal.

Now, he is selling thru large chain stores.

That is not flattery.

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:27 pm
by JollyRogers
Well I agree wholeheartedly with everything everyone has posted here. It is not my intent to copy anyone's design and I have made that quite clear. But where to your draw the line?

One guy puts a bail on his pot so no one else should? Or somebody uses a wick so no one else can? Maybe a guy drills holes in the top of the can instead of the side? Let's not forget that he didn't say no because I copied his design.

He said "No" because I was upset that he accused me of stealing and required evidence contrary to the fact. Seems pretty hypocritical from someone who makes alcohol stoves out of cans. ;)

As for WBS I made my stove before I ever saw a WBS. Is mine shiny like theirs? Yes. Does it have holes in the sides? Yes? Does it burn alcohol? Yes. But that is about where the similarity ends. My point with WBS is that just looking at a picture on the internet you would not be able to see much difference. In reality my stove holds more fuel, is smaller, has fewer holes of a different size and is riveted. It also has a much smaller flame pattern for small pots and Heineken stoves. Not to mention that the inner wall of the stove is a completely different shape. So there is a question of perception and reality here. In reality the two stoves are very different.

Same applies to wind screens. I have never seen any plans for Zelph's windscreen. I don't own one and have never seen one first hand. I tried a similar shaped one with a similar hole pattern (as best I could tell from pictures/videos) and it didn't work for my stove. There was not enough air flow.

Now when I was working on my wood burner, I discovered that different shaped holes make a difference in how the air will flow through a windscreen. So I knew how I wanted to solve my problem. But one of the other issues I had was the way the tooling foil rolled up so tight, you could easily work harden the foil and cause it to crack. Then I though of the shape of Zelph's windscreen. The ripples would keep people from rolling/folding the windscreen so work hardening would not be as much of an issue.

So I liked the texture of Zelph's windscreen and would like to do something similar with mine. That's all there is to it. Don't get me wrong, I mean what I say. Zelph is still the fire god. He makes amazing stoves. I don't want to take anything away from that. I have no intent on bashing his ability or his products. I'm just trying to improve on MY design and Zelph has inspired me to do so.

I made this very apparent to Zelph, heck I even sent him pictures of the tools I intended to use and the hole pattern. And by his own words, he wanted to ensure the two were only similar and not an "exact copy".

For further proof, here is my windscreen:
It is 4" tall and has slotted holes cut at every 3/8" on center (before crimping). Overall length is still being decided. The one in this picture was 16" before being crimped.

It is made out of 36 Gauge (.005" Thick) tooling foil that can be bought at most art supply stores. It comes in rolls that are 12" wide and varying lengths. I cut it into 4" strips using a guillotine paper cutter.

The holes were punched with a Fiskars Leave it to Weaver Border Punch also available at most art supply stores in the scrap booking section. The Crimping was done with a Fiskars Paper Crimper, aslo available at art supply stores and crimps materials up to 6.5 inches wide.
Border Punch and hole pattern
Paper Crimper

Here is my prototype:

If you really want to spend $75+ in tools/materials to make a 10 cent wind screen you have my permission to do so. If you can make a big commercial venture out of it feel free.

If you go to Zelph's site he doesn't even sell wind screens. So again, it's not an issue of sales or theft. It is only an issue of ego.

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:40 pm
by ConnieD
I don't know...

He sells the windscreen with his stoves that use it.

I don't know anyone else who has crimped the windscreen material.

What is so great about it, is it rolls up nicely, and, it doesn't get all deformed like the smooth metal foils.

It is his innovation.

But I don't know how he feels about it.

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:52 pm
by Ridgerunner
Zelph will sell anyone an EZ fold windscreen if they ask for it. It is included with some of his stoves. Just because you don't see an item in his store does not mean he does not sell it only that he does not have sufficient supplies of it at the time. The crimped windscreen was solely Zelphs innovation and creation. I don't think changing the shape of the holes really is much of a change in design. One could make triangular vent holes and say it is different but the fact is it is still a "v" shaped crimped windscreen with vent holes. It is like copying a stove design and using different sized jet holes and saying it is your design. Perhaps if one would use a block crimping tool instead of a 'v', there would be sufficient difference that one could say it was a different design. ;) JMHO

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:34 pm
by JollyRogers
RR - Fair enough, so by that same logic then, isn't everyone who has ever sold a can stove guilty of this? I didn't take a design and make a few changes to it just so I could say it was different. I had my own design and improved it with someone else's idea. Just as Zelph has done with every one of his stoves. If he would like to post his windscreen design or send me a sample so that I can verify that it is just similar and not and exact copy I would be willing to do so. :?

Also by that same notion, my cook set includes sporks. Does that mean I am in the business of selling sporks? No, it is part of my cook set. It is something I will sell you if you really want it, but it obviously isn't worth the time and effort to dedicate sales to it. I would imagine that is the same reason Zelph doesn't have windscreens for sale on his web site, but that really isn't the issue. Burger King also puts napkins in the bag when you go through the drive through. That doesn't make them a napkin sales company.

Another little tidbit is that in my PM I even offered to use another crimp pattern to ensure there was no issue. But that never came out either. And since all of this blew up I just went out and bought what was available. The other pattern would have had to be ordered and I would have had to pay shipping. Not really worth the effort after all of this.

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:08 am
by JollyRogers
ConnieD wrote:I don't know...

He sells the windscreen with his stoves that use it.

I don't know anyone else who has crimped the windscreen material.

What is so great about it, is it rolls up nicely, and, it doesn't get all deformed like the smooth metal foils.

It is his innovation.

But I don't know how he feels about it.
I agree with this 100%. It is his innovation, and a wonderful one at that. I fully acknowledge and appreciate that. I even volunteered to compensate him for using it in the form of a full cook set. I'm not looking to steal credit from anyone. I'm not claiming to have come up with the idea. I'm just using the same technique it to improve on my existing design. That is really what it is, a technique. There are no measurements involved, no designing. Just how you form the metal. My measurements are my own. They all came from my little brain. I'm not buying up cooks sets and reverse engineering them.

I'm going to let this go. Zelph has shown great character by opening this up to discussion and I appreciate that. He has allowed me to voice my side of it on his web forum. Also appreciated. I would also like to thank everyone who has participated as well. I know that Zelph is a friend and colleague and still you all expressed your views civilly and with tact. I appreciate that, even if we have a difference in opinion.

It think Zelph and I unintentionally rubbed each other the wrong way. So if Zelph wants to discuss this further in private or on the message board I will do so either way. But really it is between he and I.

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:47 am
by ridebks
[quote][/quote]If you would have kept this a private matter and asked me in a pm instead of a thread maybe things would have turned out different.

I am going to be the first to be rude...I am starting to get insulted by JR's comments. JR is the one that made this public in the first place! All it took was a PM and none of this would have transpired. Also, Zelph said nothing to the fact that you were a thief. Matter of fact ,i feel that Zelph has shown a ton of restraint buy letting you rant and rave about why you feel his answer was wrong. You asked the question, you got an answer, now move on!

I'm sorry, but you are going to market a White Box stove with a Zelph wind screen! I can't speak for everyone, but that's how it looks. I understand you think they are different but they are also very similar. White Box's first edition was riveted, It also holds 3oz and burns for 25 minutes...sound familiar? Add to that a wind screen that is a close copy of Zelph's, and the next thing you know you have no market because the word of mouth of STOVIES will turn against you. MBDC!!!

Over time I have come to realize that you don't piss off certain people in this community. Zelph is definitly one of those. He has shared his work with anyone who wants to see it. To bash him publicly,like you have, is pretty rude! You're right...everyone on this thread has been extreeeemly polite with this matter, but I can't stand to see someone ask a question, not get the answer they want, and then b&$%h about it! Did you really think that calling Zelph "Fire God" was going to get you anywhere? You ought to start thinking about moving to Maine, setting up shop, and advertise on YouTube!

With that being said...THANK YOU for making this thread public! It has been very entertaining! My apoligies to everyone else, but I just couldn't take it anymore!

Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:50 am
by oops56
ok here a very easy stove and you can copy this stove and have fun