Failure turned into a Success!!!

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Tony
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Re: Failure!

Postby Tony » Tue May 13, 2008 8:37 pm

Hi Daren,

It is interesting that you have different results.

The graph below is one that I did of the Trangia (red line) with the simmer ring closed at different stages, when boiling reached the flame was extinguished and burner reweighed. please note the level line, basically with my testing no matter how slow it took to boil I could not make the trangia use more fuel.

The other lines are of a MSR Whisperlite and a MSR Pocket Rocket, they where all boiling the same amount of water under the same conditions.

Tony


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DarenN
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Re: Failure!

Postby DarenN » Tue May 13, 2008 9:17 pm

Tony;
if I understand you correctly, the Trangia uses the same amount (by weight) of fuel to boil a given amount of water no matter how high the flame is set. this doesn't surprise me much given that it takes a given number of BTUs to boil. BTU is a measurement based on weight of fuel. this is the hypothesis that the Neufeld Principle is based on. it states that 19ml of Methyl Hydrate carries the equivelant BTU potential of 1/2oz of Denatured Alcohol.
but simmerring is not boiling. i think that somewhere along the way we got off the same page.
Daren.......
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

Tony
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Re: Failure!

Postby Tony » Wed May 14, 2008 12:59 am

Hi Daren,

but simmerring is not boiling. i think that somewhere along the way we got off the same page.


I was using the simmering ring to slow down the heating time, I was not simmering the water. In all cases on the graph I was raising the water from 20C to 100C recording the time it took to boil and then recording the amount of fuel it took to raise the one liter 80C, I thought this was explained on the top of the graph. With the trangia it did not use more fuel on as fast as I could make it go as it did on the slowest time it took to boil. I believe that Trangias is design to operate its optimum burn rate, and I found that it worked much better when using Ethanol than methanol.

doing some tests with the simmer ring on is a good way to test if at the full flame setting is work at the optimum efficiency.

this doesn't surprise me much given that it takes a given number of BTUs to boil. BTU is a measurement based on weight of fuel. this is the hypothesis that the Neufeld Principle is based on. it states that 19ml of Methyl Hydrate carries the equivelant BTU potential of 1/2oz of Denatured Alcohol.


I do not understand by what you are trying to tell me here. My engineering thermodynamic book does not mention the "Neufeld Principle" some info on it would be helpful.

With the graph I have been trying to explain two principles, the first is that if a flame is too strong or if there is too much flame then heat is lost up the sides of the pot in other words wasted, the Trangia does not have this problem and the second is, once the optimum time/efficiency is reached taking longer to boil is not less efficient (see yellow line in graph which is using a MSR Pocket rocket (PR)) at different valve setting on the faster boil times The PR used up to 50% more fuel than the slower boil times in the graph it also can be noted that with the PR once the boil time of 12 minutes was reached there was no efficiency gained by taking longer to boil ( PLEASE NOTE THAT FOR THE PR THE OPTIMUM BOIL TIME OF 12 MIN/LITER WAS THE SAME TIME AS THE TRANGIA ON MAX SETTING???).

Also I am not sure what you mean by denatured alcohol as there are so many mixes that are called denatured it is impossible to compare the heating content of Methanol to denatured with out stating what the mix is. The denatured that I use is 95% ethanol with a mix of water and Methanol making up the rest. It is nearly as efficient as pure ethanol. US denatured can contain as low as 25% ethanol with many other chemicals added, I have found 16 different additives so far.

Tony

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Re: Failure!

Postby oops56 » Wed May 14, 2008 1:59 am

Just a shot of it in action. I found a good stand a sterno stand had to put the cover under the stove to get right hight
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DarenN
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Re: Failure!

Postby DarenN » Wed May 14, 2008 8:41 am

"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Failure!

Postby Ridgerunner » Fri May 16, 2008 3:40 pm

Wow Daren, I take a few days in the woods and come home to see you have the lid sealed to your Jolgia AND a simmer cover. Good Job. Looking at the simmer cover, do you drop it inside the pot stand and if it sits inside the potstand, how do you go about adjusting the openings for the simmer cover ?
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

"Live Life....Love Life....Ask More !

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DarenN
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Re: Failure!

Postby DarenN » Fri May 23, 2008 5:40 pm

i built another one useing 18 jets. there is absolutely no difference in performance.

Ridgerunner wrote: Looking at the simmer cover, do you drop it inside the pot stand and if it sits inside the potstand, how do you go about adjusting the openings for the simmer cover ?


yes it drops inside the potstand. to adjust it you have to remove your cookpot, and holding it down with a pointy stick (or knife tip) on the rivet, use another stick to turn the top. the two little notches in the top rim are so your second stick has something to grip.

Daren.....
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Failure!

Postby Ridgerunner » Sat May 24, 2008 8:36 am

yes it drops inside the potstand. to adjust it you have to remove your cookpot, and holding it down with a pointy stick (or knife tip) on the rivet, use another stick to turn the top. the two little notches in the top rim are so your second stick has something to grip.


Looks like it might stick up high enough then that you would not have to remove the pot support. :?:
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

"Live Life....Love Life....Ask More !

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DarenN
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Re: Failure!

Postby DarenN » Sat May 24, 2008 9:05 am

Ridgerunner wrote:
yes it drops inside the potstand. to adjust it you have to remove your cookpot, and holding it down with a pointy stick (or knife tip) on the rivet, use another stick to turn the top. the two little notches in the top rim are so your second stick has something to grip.


Looks like it might stick up high enough then that you would not have to remove the pot support. :?:


that's right. you can adjust it without taking the potstand off the burner.
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Failure!

Postby Ridgerunner » Sat May 24, 2008 11:57 pm

Daren, maybe you should change this thread subject from Failure !to Sweet Success ! :lol:
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

"Live Life....Love Life....Ask More !


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