Weight of Gas Canisters

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DarenN
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Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by DarenN » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:20 pm

i emptied a couple of different gas canisters recently. ;) and, of course, i weighed them. (unfortunately, i didn't weigh them when they were full.)
the first is an MSR IsoPro canister, advertised to carry 227grams (8oz avdp) of fuel.
the empty canister weighs 136grams.
the second is a Primus Power Gas canister, advertised to carry 220grams (7.8oz avdp)(405ml) of fuel.
the empty canister weighs 158grams.

i have an off-brand canister that is the same size and shape as the MSR canister. it weighed 357 grams when full. both were made in Korea. the Primus canister was made in France.

i have been unable to note any difference in stove performance across three different stoves and the three different canisters.

.....Deke da :geek: .......
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Tony
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by Tony » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:19 am

Hi Daren,

MSR canisters are made by Kovea in Korea as are some of the MSR stoves. I think Kovea might be marketed as Brunton in the US.

MSR canister gas 227g is 20% Propane and 80% isobutane A$12 here in OZ absolute ripoff and I do not use them.

Kovea canister gas is 228g canisters 30% propane and 70% isobutane A$7 here

Kovea gas 450g canisters 25% propane 75% isobutane

The STD Coleman canister gas sold here in Australia is 30% propane 70% isobutane

The Max canister gas is 40% propane and 60% isobutane.

Some cheap brands sold here in OZ 5-10% propane and 90-95% butane or isobutane.

Propane 46.3 MJ/kg has slightly more heating value than butane 45.6MJ/kg

The performance is the same except in cold conditions when the propane -43ºC boils off first leaving mostly butane -10ºC. I have a MSR canister that does not work when left overnight in the freezer at -20ºC

Tony

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zelph
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by zelph » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:51 pm

i have been unable to note any difference in stove performance across three different stoves and the three different canisters.
Thank you for your observation Daren. It's interesting to see how much fuel is available inside them to determine how many heatings can be gotten per canister.
The performance is the same except in cold conditions when the propane -43ºC boils off first leaving mostly butane -10ºC. I have a MSR canister that does not work when left overnight in the freezer at -20ºC
Hi Tony, thanks for your insight into performances of the fuels.

Do the canister mount stoves give off enough radiant heat to get the canister's temperature up to -10 degrees C ? My thinking is that once the propane burns long enough to heat the canister then both will be boiling off at the same time. Talk has it that windscreens can be used with caution.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by Ridgerunner » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:26 pm

Tony, is the Coleman STD cannisters a better product than the MSR ? The Coleman cannister is a dollar or so cheaper than the MSR cannister. It's been awhile since i bought and but if I recall, Dicks Sporting Goods had the best price around here. I'm sure thay have all gone up. A gallon of Coleman fuel was up to $18 and has come down to $12 or $13. We always pick it up at yard sales when we can find it. ;)
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by Tony » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:30 pm

Hi Zelph,
Hi Tony, thanks for your insight into performances of the fuels.

Do the canister mount stoves give off enough radiant heat to get the canister's temperature up to -10 degrees C ? My thinking is that once the propane burns long enough to heat the canister then both will be boiling off at the same time. Talk has it that windscreens can be used with caution.
Unfortunately life is not that simple, one of the main problems of canisters at cold temperatures is something called the latent heat of evaporation (refrigeration effect) if you are boiling off enough gas from within a cylinder then the cylinder cools and cools until little or no gas comes out, that is why I like liquid gas feeds, there is about +400 times expansion for liquid to gas and as you are taking liquid out of the canister, such small amounts of gas are boiled off you do not get cooling and if only the Propane boils off it is such a small amount it does not affect the mixture. Butane will only start to boil at -10ºC it really needs +0ºC to get going. putting the canister in water is usually enough.

Most of the thermal conductivity that you can get down the stove is not enough to heat the bottom of the canister which is where it matters. using a windscreen to reflect some heat and capture radiant heat is enough but in some cases it can be too much, the pot also reflects heat, Roger Caffins FAQ has a very good explanation of how when on this subject.
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_StovesTech.htm

I have all you alky stovie's converted to canisters soon.

Tony

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DarenN
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by DarenN » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:39 pm

yeah, Tony's got it nailed there. run a remote canister stove for a few minutes and the canister is positively freezing cold. frost on the outside.

latent heat of evaporation.........
ever seen a wine bottle wrapped in manilla rope? soak it in water, set it in the sun, and as the water evaporates, the wine is chilled.

Daren........
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Tony
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by Tony » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:44 pm

Hi Ridgerunner,
Tony, is the Coleman STD canisters a better product than the MSR ? The Coleman canister is a dollar or so cheaper than the MSR canister. It's been awhile since i bought and but if I recall, Dicks Sporting Goods had the best price around here. I'm sure they have all gone up. A gallon of Coleman fuel was up to $18 and has come down to $12 or $13. We always pick it up at yard sales when we can find it. ;)
I consider STD Coleman canister fuel (30/70) a better fuel mix than MSR canister fuel (20/80).

As for Coleman fuel of the White Spirit variety, I do not use it as our Shellite or Petroleum Spirit (what you call White Spirit) is of a very good quality and it is cheaper and available from every supermarket. The A$ has just fallen from US$0.92-0.95 to US$0.80 so cheap US gear will not be that cheap soon.


Tony

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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by Tony » Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:10 pm

Hi Daren,

latent heat of evaporation.........
ever seen a wine bottle wrapped in manilla rope? soak it in water, set it in the sun, and as the water evaporates, the wine is chilled.

Check this wiki out, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolgardie_safe , I have also drunk from a canvas bag hanging outside with cold water in it on a +100ºF day. I have read about the Coolgardie safes making ice on a hot dry day.

These are canvas water bags that hang on the from of cars

Image

Tony

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zelph
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by zelph » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:15 pm

Tony wrote:Hi Daren,

latent heat of evaporation.........
ever seen a wine bottle wrapped in manilla rope? soak it in water, set it in the sun, and as the water evaporates, the wine is chilled.

Check this wiki out, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolgardie_safe , I have also drunk from a canvas bag hanging outside with cold water in it on a +100ºF day. I have read about the Coolgardie safes making ice on a hot dry day.

These are canvas water bags that hang on the from of cars

Image

Tony
I'll have to get one of those canvas bags and see how well they work. Good way to have cool water at base campand other places as well.

The history of the coolgardia safes is very interesting. Necessity, the Mother of Invention. Shame, I don't have time to make one :D
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

DaddyMnM
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Re: Weight of Gas Canisters

Post by DaddyMnM » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:37 pm

Zelph,
I am not sure water evaporated cooling works too well in humid environments. I have seen evaporated cooling used instead of freon based air conditioning in arid places like west Texas, but not Illinois. It's too humid.

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