the hydrogen generator

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irrationalsolutions
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by irrationalsolutions » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:56 pm

then if the gas has no where to go yes it will pressureize but at the same time hydrogen gas is something that is hard to trap and hold for long periods of time because is molicules are so small. what you can do is wire a toggle switch to it and put that in the console. that way you can turn the whole thing off if the power is on and the engine isn't. you don't want too much pressure buildup when you start the engine either. might go big boom and no more head gaskit.
“Do or do not... there is NO try.” Yoda

Luke "Whats in (out) there?" Yoda "Only what you take with you."

Luke "I can’t believe it." Yoda "That is why you Fail.”

rusty075
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by rusty075 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:31 am

Oh I really, really hate to do this, but I just have to weigh on this....

"Hydrogen assist" hasn't been suppressed by some shadowy corporate conspiracy. The idea, which has been around for almost as long as the internal combustion engine itself, hasn't caught on because it doesn't work.

Zelph, you've got an engineering mindset. Back up and think this process through:

The energy that you can get from combusting H2+O2 back into H20 is exactly the same amount of energy as it took to separate the water into the gasses in the first place. So, AT BEST, you're breaking even. You'll get back the same amount of energy that you spent. In an impossibly perfect hypothetical system you could use an engine run on pure hydrogen and oxygen to turn an alternator, distill the water vapor that will come out the engine's exhaust pipe and send it back into the hydrogen generator, where the alternator turns it back into h2o2 to go back into the engine, and you'll have yourself a perpetual motion machine.

But of course, no engine is "perfect". In reality there's all sorts of losses:
-the engine only converts about 30% of the chemical energy from the fuel, be it gasoline or hydrogen, into mechanical energy.
-the alternator itself is only about 60% at turning that mechanical energy into electrical energy.
-the hydrogen generator is only about 50-80% efficient at turning that electrical energy into chemical energy.
(all the "lost" energy leaves the system as heat)

But for now, lets ignore all that, and just assume that the hydrogen generator will turn all the energy that is "wasted" by the alternator back into chemical energy to be burned by the engine. That's our perfect scenario: 100% of the gasoline energy wasted by the alternator gets sent back to the engine as hydrogen energy. If it were more than 100% we'd be violating all sorts of laws of physics. So then the question is, "How much energy is wasted by the alternator?"

The answer: Not very much.

The idea that your alternator is producing 100% of its rated output anytime the engine is spinning is BS That's a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of the electrical system. It produces power based on load. Ever notice that, particularly with a low HP car, the idle RPM's will kick up a bit when you turn the headlights or the rear defrost or the blower on? That's the engine responding to the increased load on the alternator. If the alternator was producing its full wattage all the time the engine would have no need to pump more fuel to compensate for your turning the headlights on.

But yes, even with their variable loading, alternators do waste some of your gasoline. But "IRS"'s example of his buddy's truck going from 18 to 42mpg is hogwash. (assuming that all of that gain was from wasted alternator energy being recaptured) For that example to be true it would have to mean that something like 60% of the gas being burned before the mod was being wasted by the alternator. Pardon my french, but No Way in Hell. If 2 quarts of every gallon of gas we put into our cars was being wasted by the alternator there would be a mad rush to design something more efficient.

Exactly how much energy the alternator really is wasting is pretty easy to test: just run your car without the alternator. Either disconnect one of its wires, or just pull the fuse. Since we know that the best possible result would be to get back 100% of the energy being wasted, cutting the waste out of the system entirely would give us the exact same efficiency increase result. Right? You can run your car for 30-40 miles with no alternator before the battery drains. And then compare your gas mileage. Other people have tried this exact idea, and they've found that their mileage typically goes up by about 5%. 10%, maybe, if you have a little low horsepower engine.

5-10% increase in mileage is not exactly going to put Big Oil out of business.


And remember, that's Best Case Scenario. In real life, with all the inefficiencies in the system, you're probably lucky to capture 15% of that wasted energy as hydrogen energy. So, maybe 1-2% better mileage?

Save your effort. You'll get a bigger mileage bump by topping off the air pressure in your tires.


(Sorry irrationalsolutions. I'm not trying to be harsh, but well, sometimes directness is the best policy.)

irrationalsolutions
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by irrationalsolutions » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:18 am

did you read the part where i said
"the first thing you need is power. its not the volts you need but the amps, the more the better. a lot of people say that it uses more power that it creates but thats bs. if it built right the alternator on the car will creat all the power needed you can also put a bigger alternator on the car or a second one to run just the generator. other applications include running a generator and you can make a torch that gets really hot but i haven't tried that one yet."

he put a second alternator where the i think it was a smog pump was thats where the power came from. but it does work. the guy that got me started is trying to put another alternater on his on the drive shaft somehow but i dont think that is going to work like he thinks it will.
“Do or do not... there is NO try.” Yoda

Luke "Whats in (out) there?" Yoda "Only what you take with you."

Luke "I can’t believe it." Yoda "That is why you Fail.”

rusty075
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by rusty075 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:01 am

It doesn't matter if he put a second, a third, or a 47th alternator in....all the power from the alternators is still being produced by burning gasoline. Adding more alternators will produce more electricity, which will produce more hydrogen, but to do so you will need to burn exponentially more gasoline. Adding more alternators makes the system even less efficient, not more so. There is no free lunch. The First Law of Thermodynamics is a pretty hard one to break.

irrationalsolutions
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by irrationalsolutions » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:30 am

the secont alternator was installed where the smog pump or whatever it was (its from before my time) the belt turns it it makes more electricity all the electricity goes to the generator. and you are right the laws of theromodnynamics are hard to break, but you aren't breaking them. the size of the generator and the power supply determine how much gas is produced. the second alternator does take more power from the engine but not enough to cancel out the power gained. and its not a closed system. the water is converted into gas the gas is burnt using most of the energy in the gas during conbustion. you have to keep adding water and an electrolyte. you make it sould like it a pump moving the water from one point around a system and the pump is the power lost. hydrogen is a great fuel and as far as i know and oxygen is the worlds oxyidizer. fuel+an oxidizer+a point of ignition+closed space=boom=conbustion internal conbustion in this case.

have you tried it? i didnt think it would work either.
“Do or do not... there is NO try.” Yoda

Luke "Whats in (out) there?" Yoda "Only what you take with you."

Luke "I can’t believe it." Yoda "That is why you Fail.”

irrationalsolutions
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by irrationalsolutions » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:41 am

by the way i never said that is was a shadowy government conspiracy its a money thing. the car and oil companies are in bed together they have been for a long time. with government regulations do you think we would have cars that get 30 or more mpg? no, the less efficient the engine the more gas it needs the more money they make. a car is the worst investment you can make it never makes you money it just takes it over and over again.and the oil companies are half the reason.
“Do or do not... there is NO try.” Yoda

Luke "Whats in (out) there?" Yoda "Only what you take with you."

Luke "I can’t believe it." Yoda "That is why you Fail.”

rusty075
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by rusty075 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:45 am

irrationalsolutions wrote:...the second alternator does take more power from the engine but not enough to cancel out the power gained.
That, right there, is the crux of your confusion. It cannot be producing more power than it is taking from the engine. Can. Not. Not possible. If that were true I would park a big 'ol truck engine in my garage, attach a dozen alternators to it, connect the whole contraption to the electrical grid and become a millionaire by selling the "power gained" to the Electric Company.
irrationalsolutions wrote:the water is converted into gas the gas is burnt using most of the energy in the gas during conbustion. you have to keep adding water and an electrolyte. you make it sould like it a pump moving the water from one point around a system and the pump is the power lost.
OK, point by point here:
"the water is converted into gas" - Yes, which requires energy.
"the gas is burnt using most of the energy in the gas during conbustion" - Yes, which releases the SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY that was required to convert the water into gas in the first place. Once you count the efficiency losses you are behind, in terms of energy, not ahead.
"you have to keep adding water and an electrolyte" - Yes, you are using the water as a means of transferring energy from the alternator back into the engine, via electrolysis and combustion.
"you make it sould like it a pump moving the water from one point around a system and the pump is the power lost." - Well, it basically IS a pump. Water goes in the generator, gets split into hydrogen and oxygen gas, gets recombined back into water inside the engine, and then gets exhausted out the tailpipe. In each step of that process you lose energy as waste heat. There is no net gain, no "creation" of energy. The only energy source in the entire system is still the gasoline.
irrationalsolutions wrote:have you tried it? i didnt think it would work either.
No. I have also not tried jumping off a bridge and flapping my arms real fast to see if I can fly.

irrationalsolutions
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by irrationalsolutions » Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:38 am

ok you win i will call my friend when he gets home from work and tell him to take it off his car because it never worked. something else caused the milage jump. whiile i have him on the phone i'll also tell him that the earth is flat and is the center of the universe. we will never be able to fly or go faster than the speed of sound.

if people look and anything and have an idea its wrong because everything has been discovered or invented we dont need scientists anymore we already know it all.

but just for a second i know its wrong but if a car has a smog pump it most likely doesnt work anymore and the resistence on the belt from the pully is still their. and as old as it is it might have more resistance than it should. now if you take it off and put another alternator their the belt turns that pully instead but youre right that being their takes way more power to turn. but if the pully turning somehow were able to use a magnet and tesla coils it might be able to make electricity. i think you see where i'm going. it works. if you dont believe me try it. what have you got to loose jumping off a bridge to see if you can fly is dumb, you start by cumping off a chair. they told columbus the world was flat he tried anyway and look what happened.

science is mans way to explain how God works. since man is flawed so is science.
“Do or do not... there is NO try.” Yoda

Luke "Whats in (out) there?" Yoda "Only what you take with you."

Luke "I can’t believe it." Yoda "That is why you Fail.”

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dlarson
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by dlarson » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:14 am

I've spent hours upon hours researching this stuff so here's my two bits.
Rusty075, I agree that the power gained from burning the gas is the same as the power used to create it (all things being perfect with no losses). All systems have some sort of energy loss, even the silly little transformer blocks we plug into our wall to drop 120 volts down to 12 volts lose energy. Gasoline engines are some of the worst for energy loss because they lose loads of energy through the creation of heat.

Irrationalsolutions, I believe your friend may have actually seen an increase in gas mileage with the HHO system installed. If people weren't perceiving some sort of mileage benefit from these systems I don't think they would be installing these things in their cars.


I think that alternators are probably able to produce more electricity than is usually needed. If the headlights, radio, wipers and other electrical devices are on that's one load on the circuit but when they are off that's a lot less load. So there my be some extra electricity being made under normal use. I've also seen alternators overworked by after market stereo amplifiers drawing too much electricity. In that sort of situation the headlights will dim slightly with each bass thump. I've never seen an engine increase its idle for electrical draw though. Certainly, I've noticed it with the A/C on, but not for electricity.

To be honest, I'm a little torn on this topic. The laws of physics can't be broken so I wonder if these HHO systems are tapping into some unused power in the system to produce the mileage gains people perceive.
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zelph
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Re: the hydrogen generator

Post by zelph » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:31 am

But yes, even with their variable loading, alternators do waste some of your gasoline.

5-10% increase in mileage is not exactly going to put Big Oil out of business.
I think that alternators are probably able to produce more electricity than is usually needed. If the headlights, radio, wipers and other electrical devices are on that's one load on the circuit but when they are off that's a lot less load. So there my be some extra electricity being made under normal use.

Last time I had any thing to do with alternators was a few years back. They were designed to produce alternating current and diodes were used to convert to dc. The alternators at that time I think had 3 diodes connected to their housing. One diode worked when the engine turned at x amount of rpms and produced a set rate of amps to operate a set amount appliances ;) and keep the battery charged to it's peak.

When you increased the cars rpms the alternator sensed that and the second diode went into operation increasing the amount of dc available at a set amount. You could use all of the amps that it gave out or just let it go to waste.

The 3rd diode would kick in at a higher rate of rpms and so forth.

At each of the 3 levels there is energy that could possibly be directed to the hydrogen generator to produce gas to assist in powering our cars. That's where our "free lunch" comes into play.

Can we reduce the amount of time we play our radios and talk to our spouses and significant others :) That saved energy could go to the H generator.

If for every 100 dollars spent on fuel,and we spend alot, 10 percent of it can be saved, 10 dollars, why not do it?

If the auto mfgs would put a Hydrogen generator on every car just think of the savings. Just think of the royalties they would have to shell out to the inventor ;) . All the cars have air bags. and so forth.

I say lets tap into the energy not being used by our alternators. :D

These things taken into consideration makes me think that "The system works"

Make sure you top off the air tire pressure in your cars according to the season. Good tip by rusty075, thank you ;)

We don't want to put Big Oil out of buisness, we just want to feel less dependent on them. Every little bit helps.

My motto is "Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained" I try to learn something new every day and this thread has acheived that :mrgreen:
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