Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

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zelph
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Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by zelph » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:30 am

Thought I'd post this here for wood burning stoves/pots

I love my large Kelly Kettle and now I see BPL was thinking about selling a version of it in backpacking size.

Read the entire thread at backpackinglight.com http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... d_id=38591

A quote from Ryan Jordan, BPL:

Hi All,

mKettle sent me a sample to test. I had nothing to do with the development and this was my first interaction with them.

Test I did. I wrote in a private email to the manufacturer's rep that "it was awesome" (which it is -- it works great) and expressed my interest in ordering a bunch for our store. Once he sent pricing, and a delivery date to me, I expressed my intention to issue a PO to the company to purchase some.

Before we sent the Purchase Order, I received an email from Devin and others who saw my Tweet and knew about Devin's kettle, and I started investigating the forums. (No, I don't read all the forums here. It's impossible for me to do so and still be able to go home at night!)

So we held off on the PO until mKettle had a chance to respond with their side of the story and the extent to which Devin's work influenced theirs, and to participate in our forum. I don't know if they have, or not yet. I haven't reviewed the forums to see.

At any rate, I haven't received a response from the mKettle manufacturer about the extent to which Devin's design influenced theirs, so I decided to hold off on ordering it because it would just be a little weird to bring this "exact-looking" product in and then have to explain all about it, "parallel development" why I supported a company that might of ripped off a design without attribution, etc.

Are there any legal issues here? Devin put the design out there in the public domain, but he retains the ownership to what he posted. He simply granted anyone else the license to use it too, but in the latter case, only for the limited purposes of discussion and commentary. Therefore, IF mKettle used Devin's design to create their own kettle, then the law may have been broken. And IF BPL were to participate in the sale of the mKettle, then we too may have been a liable party. Is any of this enforceable? Who knows. And who cares. I'd rather simply take the conservative approach and honor Devin, who has made his own sacrifices over the years to support my company.

FYI the photo and quote on the mKettle website was used without my permission.

Anyway, y'all will have to wait a *little* while to get "lighter kettles" because BPL won't be bringing in the mKettle in the near future.

I have seen the mKettle and used it and can assure you that it's a well-made quality product, and works fine, and can vouch that it's about 13 oz.

Edited by ryan on 11/09/2010 18:08:03 MST.
Steven Evans
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sudden
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by sudden » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:55 am

Interesting development.

How do you protect your idea when you gave it away already? Gentleman's agreement?
"People are not persuaded by what we say, but rather by what they understand."

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DarenN
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by DarenN » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:50 pm

i followed Devins development of the kettle as he posted reports about it. it would be a shame if his work was ripped off by someone else. he spent a lot of time and money to get his kettle done. i recall he went through two different lathes before he got his spinning technique down.

i don't know how we would go about protecting our designs from being ripped off. i've been selling my woodstove to kayakers for about three years, and only once has someone used it as a basis for another product (windscreen), but he didn't go to market with it, so i didn't get bent out of shape about it. patenting is an option but not an economical one, and it doesn't really protect you in the long run. the slightest change in the design and the pattent isn't infringed upon. so, yes, Sudden, i guess you put it the best way there is to say it. "Gentlemans Agreement". there are some very inovative minds here at BPLite, and some great stoves have been designed and shown here. i can build just about any stove that i've seen here, but i would never try to market a stove that someone else desgined and is marketing themselves. as an example; would you buy a Starlyte from some that didn't call himself Zelph? i sure wouldn't.
"I'd rather be happy than right." Slartibartfast

sudden
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by sudden » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:17 pm

DarenN wrote:i can build just about any stove that i've seen here, but i would never try to market a stove that someone else desgined and is marketing themselves. as an example; would you buy a Starlyte from some that didn't call himself Zelph? i sure wouldn't.
I agree. I think most people will support the original designer. It's possible they came up with the same design together but I doubt anyone will buy the copy unless Devin bows out or benefits in some way. Kudo's to the site owner for putting a halt to his plans until this is resolved.

As for building a similar device for your own personal use; as a learning experience; or to improve on a design that's different (still nice to support the designer if you can afford it). I've messed around with one of my zelph stoves but that was a learning/curiosity process (still underway). I also let zelph know what I'm up to in case he finds it useful.
"People are not persuaded by what we say, but rather by what they understand."

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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by realityguy » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:46 pm

I'm pretty sure most of us here have copied "other's" stoves for our own personal use,to play with ideas,etc..or borrowed ideas from others to install in our stoves..I don't know how a person couldn't borrow some of the ideas that are plastered all over the net.
If you have a way of using water as fuel..that might be the one idea that is unique to hiking stove building.;)
The views and opinions expressed by this person are his own and not the general consensus of others on this website.Realityguy

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by Ridgerunner » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:05 am

Not an east piece of kit to copy. Much time, effort, and money would be needed. I read through the link but did not see who was copying Devins kettle or where to buy or how much it cost? Unless you have ties to the inventor or the forum, you know it will come down to the all mighty dollar. Competition is good but not when you totally copy someone elses design. The average consumer doesn't care who made it. They only care how much it is going to cost. When I go to the flea market, I see people selling counterfiet Oakley sunglasses, Nike tennis shoes, and sport jerseys all the time on the cheap. Johnny law shuts them down but a month later they are back at it. Devin needs to get his kettle on the market. It is hard to cry foul when someone else is selling something that you have put on the web but don't have any for sale. Some might say; early bird gets the worm. :o I wish Devin all the best and if I was ever to buy one, I would do so from Devin as it is HIS creation. As you all know, I prefer to make my own kettles. :DP:
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

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zelph
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by zelph » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:43 pm

Ryans original statement on twittter in red:
Excited to release a new double walled mini volcano kettle at @backpacking next month...
These are from the above 1st post:
And IF BPL were to participate in the sale of the mKettle, then we too may have been a liable party. Is any of this enforceable? Who knows. And who cares.
Anyway, y'all will have to wait a *little* while to get "lighter kettles" because BPL won't be bringing in the mKettle in the near future.
I have seen the mKettle and used it and can assure you that it's a well-made quality product, and works fine, and can vouch that it's about 13 oz.

His comments are interesting.

Good news.....Kelly Kettle company is coming out with a stainless steel small kettle in 2011. Just in case someone wants to gift me one :D
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by Ridgerunner » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:57 pm

Good news.....Kelly Kettle company is coming out with a stainless steel small kettle in 2011. Just in case someone wants to gift me one
Ditto, I'll put it on my XMAS list! :lol:
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by Ridgerunner » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:10 pm

Ridgerunner wrote:
Good news.....Kelly Kettle company is coming out with a stainless steel small kettle in 2011. Just in case someone wants to gift me one
Ditto, I'll put it on my XMAS list! :lol:
Better yet, I want the ultralight one they are developing! ;)
Originally Posted by Kelly Kettle
readers might be interested to learn that we are launching some new products shortly. 1) Stainless Steel Cook sets and 2) A Stainless Steel version of our Small Kettle before the end of December. 3) A Kelly 'Hobo' Stove attachment, 4) New Mugs and 5) our own 'Ultralight' Kettle - all in early Spring.[/url]
:DP:
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zelph
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Re: Small Volcano type set-up Ryan Jordan/mKettle

Post by zelph » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:36 pm

Better yet, I want the ultralight one they are developing! ;)
what you talkin bout? :mrgreen:

This Stainless Steel Kelly Kettle boils approximately 3 - 6 oz. Mugs of water at a time and is ideal for Kayaking, Car Camping, Scouts, Picnics, Hunters, Backpackers, and Wilderness Survival Kits. It is also perfect for people who like to go 4 wheeling of road. The Kelly Kettle is also great to have in your Disaster and Emergency Preparedness Kits, Humanitarian Kits, and also for all those who love the great outdoors.

The Kelly Kettle works great in stormy conditions, bringing water to boil within a matter of minutes using whatever solid fuel is naturally occuring in the area - sticks, grass, pine cones, birch bark etc. No need to carry extra fuel.

There are no running costs associated with your Kelly Kettle. Users have described these kettles as the "Greatest Invention of all Time." These carbon-neutral Kelly Kettle's are Eco Friendly and make camping fun and easy.

Add a Pot-Support and Cook Set to your Kelly Kettle to cook small amounts of food over your Kettle while your water comes to a boil. Cook foods like, Noodles, Rice, Oatmeal, Re-hydrated Food, Soup, and much much more. See the Accessories Category for these products.

Note: The fire bases invert partially up into the bottom of our Kelly Kettles to make the unit as compact as possible for transporting and storage. Normally, the fire base will not invert fully up into the kettle. This is particularly evident with the Medium size Kelly Kettle. Never force the inverted base up into the Kelly Kettle to try and achieve a "Perfect Fit." This may cause damage to your Kelly Kettle or result in the base becoming stuck within the kettle.

Product Dimensions:
Height ....... 10.6 inches (Packed)
Diameter... 5.5 inches (Widest Point at Rim of Base)
Capacity.... 19 fl. Ounces
Weight...... 1.67 lbs.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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